Province article on SFU decision

[redcanyon]

http://communities.canada.com/thepro...-basement.aspx


Hmmm. I can understand why SFU feels that they are being treated differently. Sounds like Howard agrees something isn't quite right!

[Cyrus]

My question is whether the rule/consequences that are outlined now are the same as 1999, which what Murphy used as his defense. I'm guessing that they aren't.

[Bailey]

On the one hand... I can't see the Canwest doing SFU any favours considering they are abondoning ship next year. But on the other hand...I am disgusted by this ruling. Unless there is something else than what has been reported this is a ridicoulous ruling.

I think that SFU's position in hte CanWest has evrything to do with this ruling. Would UofS, UofA or UofC have to give back wins in a similar scenerio? My guess is no. So though I am not onside with SFU descion to play NCAA I do think that they are part of the system and deserve the same treatment as any other team playing in the canwest this season.

[out west]

Bailey, as Mullin pointed out on another thread, Trinity Western lost a playoff win in the basketball playoffs last year due to a clerical mistake, so what is the difference.

[All-Star 82]

Just to be clear, they didn't forfeit a playoff game, it was three regular season games, and it was because they played a guy who didn't sit out a full-year, and didn't complete his courses at his last school.

[ram_boy]

SFU got what they deserved. The rule is clear. They didnt check it.

[Jim Mullin]

There were two incidents surrounding TWU:

2009 Playoffs: (From The Horn, UVIC) the Canada West came down with their decision. Rather than force the Spartans to forfeit the series, or at the very least, make the Spartans and Vikes replay Game 3, the Canada West suspended Scott Allen for two games and fined Trinity Western Athletics Department $1000 dollars.

The Horn understands that forcing the Spartans to forfeit the series with the Vikes may be slightly unfair and a bit extreme. The Spartans players had nothing to do with this inexcusable mistake made by their rookie head coach. However, you cannot deny that the Spartans got a sizable advantage by having a fresh body on their bench in each game. Remember the Vikes lost by just one in game 1 and by just two in game 3.

Furthermore, the two game ban for Allen is inconsequential.

2007-08 season: The Canada West Universities Athletic Association announces that, due to an eligibility violation, the official result of three men’s basketball games played earlier during the 2007-08 season have been overturned.

Trinity Western University, through Director of Athletics Murray Hall, recently disclosed voluntarily to Canadian Interuniversity Sport (CIS), the governing body of university sports across Canada that, through an administrative error, student-athlete Lucas Goltz took part in eight contests this season, three of which resulted in wins by Trinity Western against Lethbridge (Nov. 9, 2007), Thompson Rivers (Nov. 17) and Fraser Valley (Dec. 1).

Fourth year forward Lucas Goltz (Comox, B.C.) used a year of CIS eligibility at Royal Military College of Canada (RMC), with his last game playing for RMC Paladins being October 27, 2006.

TWU's men's basketball coaching staff and athletics administrative staff believed that Goltz would be eligible to participate for the Spartans 365 days later according to CIS regulation 40.10.5.4.2 which states: A student-athlete, who transfers from one CIS member institution to another member institution, must not participate for a period of one year in the recognized sport of CIS in which such athlete participated at the previous CIS institution in order to be eligible for CIS participation.

Goltz played his first game for TWU November 2, 2007. He satisfied the "one year sit-out" rule. An inadvertent administrative error was made in Spartan Athletics not recognizing that Goltz did not complete enough semester hours to be eligible. He met part of the criteria but not the full criteria and in the absence of some documents and an oversight by the Department he was played ineligibly. Goltz will be eligible to participate next year for the Spartans after he successfully completes two semesters of courses at Trinity Western.

The Canada West Executive has accepted Trinity Western’s offer to forfeit games won with an ineligible player, with the understanding that further sanctions could be applied once the CIS completes its investigation.

Specifically, in the second case, it was an administrative error where the player had only 16 of 18 credits, but the admin assumed he qualified and signed off on it.

Dr. Murphy violated the letter of the by-law by signing off on Clark's status. Dr. Murphy, the head of the elligibility committee should have known better and he'll be the first to tell you that.

A fact that is central to the process is that by changing Clark's status to the MbA program, his tutition quintupled. In any situation, you can follow the trial of money and find the truth.

SFU thought it would be easier to ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission. That was a long odds gamble considering the Canada West was already in a snarly mood with the school who was breaking ranks.

In comparison to the TWU regular season situation, this is fairly consistent. In comparison to the TWU playoff situation, the CW ruling is inconsistent.

[GoldenGuy]

Rules state that transfer students do not have to sit out a season if they are enrolled in a Masters Degree program. However a clerical error registered quarterback Caleb Clark, a transfer from NCAA Western Michigan, in graduate diploma program instead.

Wait a minute - what was the nature of this clerical error?

The school registered him in the wrong program? Clark paid his tuition, and SFU made an internal error?

Or was the clerical error that the AD assumed that this program Clark enrolled in was a Masters program?

I'm a bit confused.

[two four]

Actually CIS AD's are supposed to 'self report' even if someone else finds the 'error.'

It seems to me it's more about helping them save face.

Murphy should have known better. He's not new to this stuff. Those crocodile tears he's crying are really getting to me. The real purgatory is having to play D 2 football against schools nobody in Canada knows anything about nor cares.

Furthermore I feel like he's a bit of a hypocrite for selling out at SFU and going to an American D 2 conference after he attended a CIS school, stayed in Canada to work as a dentist and subsequently was an AD at his alma mater (St Mary's ) for many years...he goes west and knows SFU wants to leave and ...leads the charge. What a way to end your career...really!

Perhaps he should make it right and re-apply to stay in the Can West...I won't hold my breath...talk about a legacy.

[DogAlum]

The ruling in 1999 that the article is referring to is not even close to this situation. That ruling involved Chris Sembalarus(?spelling) the same guy who later transferred to SMU. I may get the exact logistics wrong - someone can fill in the blanks.

Chris was enrolled in the college Arts and Science. He was registered in 24 credit units that included some classes in the second half of the year. On the Friday night before the playoff game he dropped a couple of his second term classes to not pay a late fee which brought him down to 16 credit units - 9 of which he was still registered in the first term. He then played the game on Saturday. On Sunday he realized his mistake and re registered in a couple classes again in the second term. to bring him back up to the required 18 credit units.

The U of S self reported this error.

That is a long way away from the situation that happened at SFU this year. For Murphy to even compare the two situations is a joke in my opinion.

[Snake Wilson]

Originally Posted by DogAlum

The ruling in 1999 that the article is referring to is not even close to this situation. That ruling involved Chris Sembalarus(?spelling) the same guy who later transferred to SMU. I may get the exact logistics wrong - someone can fill in the blanks.

Chris was enrolled in the college Arts and Science. He was registered in 24 credit units that included some classes in the second half of the year. On the Friday night before the playoff game he dropped a couple of his second term classes to not pay a late fee which brought him down to 16 credit units - 9 of which he was still registered in the first term. He then played the game on Saturday. On Sunday he realized his mistake and re registered in a couple classes again in the second term. to bring him back up to the required 18 credit units.

The U of S self reported this error.

That is a long way away from the situation that happened at SFU this year. For Murphy to even compare the two situations is a joke in my opinion.

That's how I remember it. The key thing with that situation is that the U of S reported the ineligible player to the CIAU and Canada West immediately. This is far different than the way SFU handled the Clark situation.

[Jim Mullin]

Originally Posted by GoldenGuy

Wait a minute - what was the nature of this clerical error?

The school registered him in the wrong program? Clark paid his tuition, and SFU made an internal error?

Or was the clerical error that the AD assumed that this program Clark enrolled in was a Masters program?

I'm a bit confused.

They are maintaining the latter.

However, at the crux of this is the issue of why they did it. I'm under the impression from sources at SFU that it was about tuition. They enrolled him in classes, but not the full program. That's a little over 5k versus at least 24k, and could run as high as 30k.

Follow the money.

I also get the impression that SFU was ready to take the compassion plea if they were caught. Calgary complained. They were caught.

I'm also left with the impression that SFU tried to throw as much into the system as possible in terms of player appeals, and worked every recruiting angle that they could within the more liberal Canadian system before they exited from the conference they have grown to loathe.

[two four]

So Blake against his former boss....touchez!

[GoldenGuy]

That doesn't sound like a clerical error. That sounds to me like the AD (a) didn't realize the rule required a masters program rather than a "grad diploma" program, or (b) didn't understand the difference between a "grad diploma" program and a masters program, or (c) didn't adequately determine whether the program the student enrolled in was a 'grad diploma' or masters program.

All of these might be errors - I just think its hard to describe them as a "clerical error". A clerical error would be the AD's assistant typing in on a form that the student is in program A when he is really in program B, and that is what the AD reviews and approves.

[Support]

In my opinion the punishment should be changed. In 1999 with the U of S and in 2009 with Trinity Western it was handled properly. If a team has made an error whether it is on purpose or not the University should be fined (more than $1,000, I'd say between 5,000-10,000) and the coach should be suspended 2-3 games.

I don't mean to sound cliche but those players on any team bust their ass all year long to have a chance at the playoffs and to have some Administration error that they have no control over end any hope of that to me is wrong. I agree Murphy should have done a better job with the entire situation and SFU should be punished however I think the Canada West should look over this in the off season and change up the punishments and how they hand them out.

But in typical CIS fashion the league is so inconsistent in everything they do and it is things like this that make the league look like a joke.

[Jim Mullin]

Originally Posted by Support

In my opinion the punishment should be changed. In 1999 with the U of S and in 2009 with Trinity Western it was handled properly. If a team has made an error whether it is on purpose or not the University should be fined (more than $1,000, I'd say between 5,000-10,000) and the coach should be suspended 2-3 games.

I don't mean to sound cliche but those players on any team bust their ass all year long to have a chance at the playoffs and to have some Administration error that they have no control over end any hope of that to me is wrong. I agree Murphy should have done a better job with the entire situation and SFU should be punished however I think the Canada West should look over this in the off season and change up the punishments and how they hand them out.

But in typical CIS fashion the league is so inconsistent in everything they do and it is things like this that make the league look like a joke.

We almost agree. Some wonders will never cease.

[Snake Wilson]

This just in: Frank McCrystal doesn't think Manitoba should be given the win that SFU forfeited. Go figure.

http://www.leaderpost.com/sports/rul...835/story.html

[two four]

Well, Murphy was head of the CIS eligibility committee at one time andf there is a difference in a clerical error and enroling someone in an undergraduate course dscipline for say $6,000 and enroling him in a course with the same courses that cost over $20,000.

Was the player in question offered full tuition?

[Highlander]

Originally Posted by Bailey

On the one hand... I can't see the Canwest doing SFU any favours considering they are abondoning ship next year. But on the other hand...I am disgusted by this ruling. Unless there is something else than what has been reported this is a ridicoulous ruling.

I think that SFU's position in hte CanWest has evrything to do with this ruling. Would UofS, UofA or UofC have to give back wins in a similar scenerio? My guess is no. So though I am not onside with SFU descion to play NCAA I do think that they are part of the system and deserve the same treatment as any other team playing in the canwest this season.

I agree with you 100% Baily as Murphy said that Canadian Interuniversity "Sport's eligibility committee had recommended no sanctions against the player or the program" However Canada West decided to hand out the toughest penalty that it could. It sounds like the Clan had little chance of getting a fair/equal hearing from the Canada West. Too bad as it only really affects the 93 players and their families that have given so much of themselves over the years. Good luck to the Clan

[two four]

Are you sure this was a 'clerical error?'

Was this player offered full tuition?

[Dr. Evil]

I love how they dragged the U of S into it. I remember speaking to several people invovled in the U of S situation at the time and the big difference here is that they were up front with it and it was because the student did something they had no knowledge of and the moment they found out they got on the horn and faced it head on.

SFU should have known better and then dragged this out and tried to get around it. They knew the rules and they violated them or at the very least were not smart enough to ensure that all the players were eligible.

I mean you get a guy who had played several years in the US or for that matter another school you would think that you would check in to the requirements to get this guy on your team. SFU dropped the ball and screwed up and now they want to blame everyone else.

[Green Husky Fan]

Originally Posted by Snake Wilson

This just in: Frank McCrystal doesn't think Manitoba should be given the win that SFU forfeited. Go figure.

http://www.leaderpost.com/sports/rul...835/story.html

I gotta admit, I agree with Frank on this.

[ram_boy]

Frank should keep his mouth shout on this one. SFU has no excuse. The players and family of the Clan have no one tolame but their own AD and program.

[Green Husky Fan]

I don't think Frank is suggesting that SFU has an excuse. I think he's pissed off that SFU's screw up results in an undeserved win for Manitoba that leaves the Rams in a very tough situation. The Ram's are being penalized while the Herd are being given a gift. I'd be pissed as well.

[Sasky Boy]

I have to say that I think the punishment is bad. I don't know what is fair, but it looks horrible. i am not sure if the conference is more ethial than SFU was. I don't think anything was taken from regina, but it was truly a gift to MAN.

The bottom line is that Regina got dominated in their must win against AB. They should focus on that, and if they don't see the Dino's as beatable, I guess they have a really huge scheduling advantage because they have 2 weeks to prep for SK. Not sure why Regina got such a favourable schedule?

I really want to say that I think Franks comments are reasonable and even professional. He does not really attack the league, he does get into too much of a conspiracy thing, and he does not get personal. He has a right to be frustrated. He questioned the judgement without undermining the judges. I respect that.

BTW...
They are in a tie, but what the article does not mention is that SFU play MAN, if SFU kept their wins and beat MAN, they would have 4 wins, and the Rams would be out (if the Rams lose out)
Also, as for the current tie, MAN plays UBC and SFU (good chance for a 4th win)...

Regina and AB play the same teams in their last 2 games: SK and CAL ... Tie goes to AB!!! Incredible finish.