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Thread: Should there be a super league?

  1. #1
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    Default Should there be a super league?

    To be honest there are only 10-12 teams that can win the Vanier and those have a 1.5-2 million $ a year budgets. Should a super league of these teams be formed and let the other teams compete for a different championship?

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    Not in my opinion. I'm not in favour of excluding those teams that have the occasional great year and I think 10-12 teams is too limiting. One could make the argument that, this year, any of the 6 teams in CW could have won the Hardy and in the end the Hardy winner won the Vanier.

    The current system is far from perfect, but I'd prefer the 12 team playoff scenario to a two tiered league.
    Last edited by Crisis; 2019-11-24 at 13:49.

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    Of the many issues with a super-league or tiering, OUA remains the toughest one.

    RSEQ is easy to tier (with its teams likely seeing the benefit of doing so), and AUS sticks together in a second tier. You could easily see Canada West sticking together as the western division of a tier 1 league. Perhaps they don't all deserve that status, but the conference doesn't split from either a competitive or geographic sense. This year's 4th place team was 1 play away from beating the eventual Vanier champion (giving them their only close game of the playoffs), and this year's 6th place team is the one that had won the Vanier most recently. It is hard to exclude anyone, and not feasible to leave just a team or two behind on their own.

    The problem is filling out an eastern division of this mythical league. Montreal and Laval are obvious, but how could you do a clean split of OUA? Not only does it not spilt easily, it is likely that they don't want to split. If they don't want to and don't see a benefit to it, how do you make it work? That'd be a tough one to crack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan View Post
    The problem is filling out an eastern division of this mythical league. Montreal and Laval are obvious, but how could you do a clean split of OUA?
    Western is a no-brainer. McMaster and Guelph are quite obvious. Then it gets fuzzy with Ottawa, Carleton, Waterloo and Laurier. I guess you could include a promotion/relegation system similar to what we have in cégep football that if you win or lose 70% of our games, you can be promoted or relegated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylven View Post
    Western is a no-brainer. McMaster and Guelph are quite obvious. Then it gets fuzzy with Ottawa, Carleton, Waterloo and Laurier. I guess you could include a promotion/relegation system similar to what we have in cégep football that if you win or lose 70% of our games, you can be promoted or relegated.
    While we can carve up OUA and come up with schemes, it doesn't gain us much if the teams themselves aren't interested in it. I don't see a lot of evidence to show that OUA teams want to replace games against fellow Ontario teams with games that involve national travel.

    Ultimately, any ideas about changing USports football comes down to whether the teams in RSEQ and OUA want to do some sort of shuffle/restructure. That is the only place where new alignments might make sense from a travel and logistics perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan View Post
    While we can carve up OUA and come up with schemes, it doesn't gain us much if the teams themselves aren't interested in it. I don't see a lot of evidence to show that OUA teams want to replace games against fellow Ontario teams with games that involve national travel.

    Ultimately, any ideas about changing USports football comes down to whether the teams in RSEQ and OUA want to do some sort of shuffle/restructure. That is the only place where new alignments might make sense from a travel and logistics perspective.
    Agreed.
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    I wouldn't mind tiering the OUA. The bottom four teams from the previous season could play a home-and-home series against each other (six games) plus two games against two of the top seven teams. Of the top seven teams, they would play one game against each other (six games) plus one game against one of the bottom teams and one other game against a remaining team.

    At the end of the season, the top four teams from the first tier would play for the Yates (reducing post-season by one week), while the top two teams from the second tier would play a promotion game (winner gets moved to first tier). The seventh place team in first tier would be relegated to the second tier. Considering the bottom four normally aren't legitimately competing for the Yates anyway (because they are bad), I don't think they would complain too much. And this way, it gives those bottom four to actually play for something (as opposed to York simply just "being there"). As an employee of the York Lions, it would be nice to see the football team play for something.

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    It's all a moot point, once the Northern 8 died we knew for sure there was no super-league coming.

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    Here's my very verbose answer : yes.

    It's probably never happening, for (OUA) reasons mentioned above. But I still think it's the way forward. Anything else will slowly move us backwards.
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    Default Reality check

    Discussions about Northern 8, super-league and tiering make for a nice way to kill time in the off-season. Reality is: 0 % chance of happening. Not because of costs or anything else relating to the game itself. Naw. that could be overcome.

    What will stop it for the foreseeable future is that it would take an unanimous vote by the 27 universities to amend the constitution or whatever rules CIS/USports. I think Jim Mullin posted that requirement somewhere.

    And, believe you me: AUS universities are totally against it. There might be universities in other conferences that feel likewise.

    For your reading pleasure, please enjoy this post from Jim back on 2 Nov 2016:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mullin View Post
    I believe that one thing holding back the progress of the game is how we understand what a conference is in this country, and how that in turn crushes consensus and progress.

    Follow me on this. In the US, you have conferences of schools who are like-minded and then attached to geography. In Canada, you have two conferences within political boundaries, and two regional conferences defined by their role in confederation. The size, operation or mission of the institutions involved in any of those conferences has almost zero to do with the reason they are in association with competing schools.

    How can a group come to an agreement on anything when they don't even share a modus operandi on their basic approach of what university is?

    I remember when UBC was looking at the NCAA and their goal was to get basketball in the West Coast Conference. Did anyone ask the WCC? All of the current members are private, faith-based institutions with all except BYU with an enrolment of 10k or less. The point is Canadian conferences are more aligned with the inaction of government structures which is then applied sport. I believe the culture of the sport and then the institution's culture is the best basis for building the right mixture of cooperation and competition.

    Canada West football has few issues when it comes to direction and governance, but basketball is a 180-degree proposition. Former community colleges meshed together with giant research institutions create an imbalance in resources, competition and communication. The modern day Can West is a merger of the CWUAA and Great Plains Athletic Conference, comprised of the Winnipeg, Brandons and Reginas of the world. You could have one of those in BC alone. Bring back the GPAC! Start up the NPAC!

    The RSEQ is split in the directions of size, language, competition and resources. The OUA's disparities have been thoroughly explained here.

    The argument can be made that as a conference only the AUS might have it right in terms of culture, competition and shared resources. Really, any competition at the national level is the "bonus round", not the day-to-day play and in many aspects, the AUS is on the mark.

    When I look back at the conference alignments of the 1960's and 70's, I think they had it more right than wrong.

    The West, The Big Four, the OSLAA West and East, the MIAA.

    The Big Four a.k.a. the SIFL was McGill, Toronto, Queen's and Western. Can you think of a group which is more culturally in alignment than those four central Canadian Anglo snots? Still, I guarantee football would mean more on those campuses if the core of their conference schedule was built on identifying with competition within their "club". Queen's could Kill McGill again.

    Bishop's played against St. Patrick's and MacDonald College in the OSLAA. In terms of size, culture and competition the fit is now obviously with the AUS, at least for football. Here's an idea for the Gaiters. Make like a junior hockey team and buy a bus. Moncton could start a team and head to the Q. Would the bilingual universities of Ottawa and Concordia find legion with Laval, Montreal, Sherbrooke and Trois-Rivieres (this will happen one day)? Would they take Carleton with them? Mac-Guelph-Waterloo-Windsor-York-Laurier share more in common. They were the ones shut out of the Big 4 back in the day.

    The point is, something like interlock (which, along with continental non-conference games happened way more back then) would be achieved far easier since these groups could come to a resolution since schools are not coming from such divergent positions within their own conferences.

    What we have now in Central Canada is a cross-wired machine with mismatched parts which drives in the circle of its' own self made rut. No one is looking for answers out of their box, because they can't even agree to what the questions are inside of it. I don't think that's the case in the Maritimes or the west when it comes to football.

    I'm calling it "lamentable potential".
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    Quote Originally Posted by la Tuque View Post
    Discussions about Northern 8, super-league and tiering make for a nice way to kill time in the off-season. Reality is: 0 % chance of happening. Not because of costs or anything else relating to the game itself. Naw. that could be overcome.

    What will stop it for the foreseeable future is that it would take an unanimous vote by the 27 universities to amend the constitution or whatever rules CIS/USports. I think Jim Mullin posted that requirement somewhere.

    And, believe you me: AUS universities are totally against it. There might be universities in other conferences that feel likewise.

    For your reading pleasure, please enjoy this post from Jim back on 2 Nov 2016:



    http://www.cisfootball.org/forums/sh...456#post189456

    I always considered that post by Jim one of the most meaningful on this forum. Ever!
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    Simple idea:

    Have the OUA team with a bye play an RSEQ team with a bye.

    No changes needed to playoff formats, start date, end date, or conference alignment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
    Simple idea:

    Have the OUA team with a bye play an RSEQ team with a bye.

    No changes needed to playoff formats, start date, end date, or conference alignment.
    So 10/11 OUA teams play 9 games (One lucky team still gets a bye week), people miss out on chances to be home with their families over Thanksgiving and all RSEQ teams play 10 games?


    A simple solution would be the same concept to have the RSEQ and AUS bye teams play each other on ONE of their TWO bye weeks but that interlock was already scraped and a team moved due to a lack of competitiveness.
    Last edited by chappy; 2019-11-26 at 05:05.
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    2016: 14 weeks, 18 games, 9,791kms. (preseason incl.)
    2015: 11 weeks, 16 games, 6,247kms.
    .......
    2009: 12 weeks, 19 games, 11,063kms.
    2008: 12 weeks, 19 games, 6,191kms.
    2007: 11 weeks, 18 games and 7,531kms.

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    The RSEQ wants nothing to do with an interlock with the AUS. Absolutely nothing gained from this competitively, only added costs.

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    Won't happen but easy solution is generally:

    1. Each conference chooses their own schedule for regular season (my views below but would leave to each conference)

    The West is competitive to each other and travel is hard so don't change

    The OUA is actually much better than a few years ago so may not change but I would try to get 8 teams to play 1 out of conference game (does not count in the OUA standings but coaches will want to do it to challenge their teams). They play 1 game against either Laval and Montreal. Perhaps done in a bye week so season be a week shorter. The bottom 2 teams from year before play each other. The 11th team ... who knows. Perhaps they play an AUS team

    OQIFC - Montreal and Laval play each other 2x and OUA 4 times. EG - Montreal plays Western, Queen's, Laurier and Carleton. Laval plays Mac, Guelph, Waterloo and Ottawa.

    Other OQ teams plays each other (or maybe it is 3x vs OUA so the big guys can play one lesser team for rivalry and gauge balance - McGill vs Montreal)

    AUS - stays the same except for OUA cross over above.

    2. For the playoffs you have 2 tiers:

    Tier 1 is Vanier

    Tier 2 is another national championship for those who choose to play Tier 2 playoffs or those who lose in the Vanier playoffs. Eg - U of T makes OUA playoffs but loses in round 1 and then they go to the Tier 2 championship. Would be played in small stadium with community feel and I bet would be super fun to watch.

    However,


    This won't happen
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay K. View Post
    The RSEQ wants nothing to do with an interlock with the AUS. Absolutely nothing gained from this competitively, only added costs.
    I have to wonder what would work for Concordia, McGill, and Sherbrooke at this point? I can see why AUS interlock wouldn't be terribly appealing, but the status quo isn't exactly great either. Those teams would probably gain the most from playing against OUA teams, but OUA has no need for interlock games. In some ways, the situation for these three schools isn't all that different than the situation Bishop's faced (in fact, Bishop's was the last RSEQ team that wasn't Montreal or Laval to finish top 2 in the standings, yet they still felt the need to leave). Since Bishop's left, it has gotten worse for the remaining teams as half of their schedule now consists of Montreal and Laval.

    Back when Bishop's was in RSEQ, I always thought the best interlock would've been to exclude the top 2 teams from RSEQ from it, then have the rest of RSEQ play against AUS. This would've gotten rid of the worst of the blowouts, and created a slightly unbalanced schedule that would've helped the bottom 4 of RSEQ while still giving the AUS a strong challenge. Unlike games versus Montreal and Laval, these interlock games wouldn't have been an insurmountable mountain for AUS to climb.

    The fact that Bishop's decided to stop climbing the insurmountable Laval/Montreal mountain threw a wrench into that idea. The rest of RSEQ has no such avenue of escape, as they're too big of schools to be a fit for AUS, and OUA already turned down McGill when they attempted to flee. Beside, the conference could only afford to lose 1 more team at most. So unless they're going to fold the conference, they're all stuck with trying to make something of the current setup.

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    For now, all 3 schools seem intent on catching up to Montreal, especially Concordia and Sherbrooke. I get a pretty positive vide from the programs.

    Catching up to Laval is a whole 'nother matter, obviously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan View Post
    In some ways, the situation for these three schools isn't all that different than the situation Bishop's faced (in fact, Bishop's was the last RSEQ team that wasn't Montreal or Laval to finish top 2 in the standings, yet they still felt the need to leave).
    That's true (2013 with Jordan Heather at QB) but Bishop's just went down afterwards up to the point they had a hard time competing with McGill, Bishop's and Sherbrooke when they decided to jump conference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylven View Post
    That's true (2013 with Jordan Heather at QB) but Bishop's just went down afterwards up to the point they had a hard time competing with McGill, Bishop's and Sherbrooke when they decided to jump conference.
    They definitely fell on hard times when he graduated. Because they're so much smaller, it is always more difficult for them.

    That said, I think their 2013 season is both a model and a warning to their peers. It showed that it is possible to be competitive with Laval and Montreal even without their depth and resources, if you have a once in an generation type QB leading the way. It also showed that when competing under those circumstances, all it takes is one cheap shot to turn a good season into a hopeless one.

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    I know that Brad Collinson and his staff are knocking on a lot of doors in and outside QC to improve the talent and overall depth of the Stingers. Remains to be seen how successful they will be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
    Simple idea:

    Have the OUA team with a bye play an RSEQ team with a bye.

    No changes needed to playoff formats, start date, end date, or conference alignment.
    OUA-RSEQ interlock could easily work but the games have to count in the standings. It works because together the two conferences have 16 teams. It would eliminate the need for bye weeks. Eliminating the bye week allows the conferences to adjust to an earlier Grey Cup/Vanier pairing without starting a week earlier.

    Ten of 11 OUA teams would play one game against an RSEQ opponent and the 5 RSEQ teams play two games each against OUA opponents.

    The top 2 RSEQ play against the top 4 OUA teams. The bottom 3 RSEQ play OUA teams 5-10. OUA team #11 changes every year regardless of ranking.

    Based on recent standings,

    Laval would play Western and Guelph
    Montreal would play McMaster and Ottawa
    Concordia vs Waterloo & Windsor
    McGill vs Queen's & Laurier
    Sherbrooke vs Carleton & Toronto

    Travel costs are usually a hurdle to any interlock discussion, but that shouldn't be a major issue. OUA teams would travel to Quebec once every two years. For Ottawa, Carleton & Queen's a road game in Quebec is probably as cheap as their average road trip to central or western Ontario. Windsor has the longest travel distances. If they have a problem with the expense or travel time, let them be exempted from the interlock every third year. Or, ensure that they don't also have to travel to Ottawa/Carleton any year they have to play in the RSEQ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay K. View Post
    I know that Brad Collinson and his staff are knocking on a lot of doors in and outside QC to improve the talent and overall depth of the Stingers. Remains to be seen how successful they will be.
    Concordia was certainly having more success against Montreal this year. Hopefully that will continue next season along with improvement against Laval.
    Last edited by Stinger Fan; 2019-11-27 at 15:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stinger Fan View Post
    Concordia was certainly having more success against Montreal this year. Hopefully that will continue next season along with improvement against Laval.
    I believe it will. Concordia is going in the right direction and may show the other RSEQ teams they can become competitive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter.gryphon View Post
    OUA-RSEQ interlock could easily work but the games have to count in the standings. It works because together the two conferences have 16 teams. It would eliminate the need for bye weeks. Eliminating the bye week allows the conferences to adjust to an earlier Grey Cup/Vanier pairing without starting a week earlier.

    Ten of 11 OUA teams would play one game against an RSEQ opponent and the 5 RSEQ teams play two games each against OUA opponents.

    The top 2 RSEQ play against the top 4 OUA teams. The bottom 3 RSEQ play OUA teams 5-10. OUA team #11 changes every year regardless of ranking.

    Based on recent standings,

    Laval would play Western and Guelph
    Montreal would play McMaster and Ottawa
    Concordia vs Waterloo & Windsor
    McGill vs Queen's & Laurier
    Sherbrooke vs Carleton & Toronto

    Travel costs are usually a hurdle to any interlock discussion, but that shouldn't be a major issue. OUA teams would travel to Quebec once every two years. For Ottawa, Carleton & Queen's a road game in Quebec is probably as cheap as their average road trip to central or western Ontario. Windsor has the longest travel distances. If they have a problem with the expense or travel time, let them be exempted from the interlock every third year. Or, ensure that they don't also have to travel to Ottawa/Carleton any year they have to play in the RSEQ.
    This one's an uncostly solution and it gets rid of the bye week as a bonus ! Pretty sure ConU, McGill and Sherby wouldn't complain about it. As for the top teams meeting Laval and Montréal, they usually say it's a great experience and a good measuring stick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bizz View Post
    This one's an uncostly solution and it gets rid of the bye week as a bonus ! Pretty sure ConU, McGill and Sherby wouldn't complain about it. As for the top teams meeting Laval and Montréal, they usually say it's a great experience and a good measuring stick.
    With 6 games vs RSEQ and 2 vs OUA opponents, ConU-Sherby-McGill would never have to play both Laval and Montreal twice in the same season.

    Waterloo, Laurier and Carleton would be a handful for C-S-M and Queen's a good match-up most of the time. There wouldn't be many automatic Ws but there would be some very competitive games.
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